Box of Rain is one of my favorite songs! Its also quite a sad song. However, in the post Jerry era, Phil changed the last couple of words of the song from "such a long, long, time to be gone, and a short time to be there"....to " such a long, long,time to be gone, and a short time to be, to be, to be".... For years the fans loved to sing the original ending, and now, it just kind of ends a bit erratically. It really doesnt sound right. I know its an emotional song for Phil, but I really wish that he'd go back to the original ending...Does anybody know why he changed it?

brilliant.... I love when phil switches up the lyrics.....thats not the first time or only song.....keeps the listener on their toes.....I am sure it rocked..........LONG LIVE THE MAGIC

No dude! he PERMANATELY changed the ending. And it didnt rock. You probably never even heard the original Box of Rain live..."newbie"

not really sure, if its an offical reason but it was the very last tune he ever played with the GD line up,.... i bet he has a reason i've never thought of though...

Yeah..Im sure that Phil has a reason, but I never heard him say anything about it. Im really curious, because its such a personally sad song for him concerning the dearh of his father, and to change the lyrics, if only slightly, I figured he'd have a pretty good reason to.

>>You probably never even heard the original Box of Rain live..."newbie"<<

with that attitude - GOOD LUCK - ever getting a legitimate answer to your question. Jerk.

JOHN(THETRIGZONE)

DO NOT EVER EMAIL ME AGAIN. THAT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE. IF YOU EVER EMAIL ME AGAIN YOU WILL BE REPORTED TO ADMIN. PERIOD. YOU ARE THE ONE INSULTING PEOPLE FOR NO CAUSE. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THE "KID" (AS YOU ASSUME ABOVE) HAS SEEN SHOWS OR NOT. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HE'S A KID - HE COULD BE OLDER THAN YOU AND SEEN TWICE AS MANY SHOWS - AND EVEN IF THAT WAS THE CASE HE WOULD'T BE "BETTER" THAN YOU - JUST AS YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN HE. DON'T SEND VAUGUE THREATS & INSULTS TO MY PERSONAL EMAIL - THAT SHIT WILL GET YOU IN TROUBLE. WHO MADE YOU THE END ALL BE ALL KNOW IT ALL OF GRATEFUL DEAD KNOWLEDGE.

AGAIN I SAY - WITH YOUR ATTITUDE - GOOD LUCK EVER HAVING YOUR QUESTION ANSWERED.

FRIEND.

and I'm not going to engage in a pissing match w/ you either, so please quit picking on people and drop it.

That post was none of your business, and I didnt "threaten" anybody...perhaps you should read it again....and dont call me a jerk. Report me? go ahead...the end

muppet,i have no idea what john said to you but if its "out of line" to email you why have your address in your profile?

whatever, The email was inappropriate and far more out of line than my public post here. as for why, I definitely did NOT put it on there for someone to take the rhetoric here to a personal level.

I'm sorry if I was out of line, I just get so sick of the higher than thou attitude of certain deadheads who seem to think they're better than another. I seem to recall this entire site being shut down recently due to all the harshness and abuse that was going rampant here.

I guess some just don't care whether we're civil towards each other or whether this site even survives.

have fun, I'll go elsewhere.

BTW - back to the point.

does anyone know why Phil changed the song or not?

i dont think Phil actually changed the lyrics. in recent years, he usually repeats "to be" a few times dramatically and sorta mumbles the "there" as the song winds down.

I keep listening...but I can't hear him say "there"... I'll listen again

you need a special extra-dimensional hearing aid and a vulcan mind melt with Phil to hear the "there" there, but it's there.

Hey John - I am sorry for freaking out this morning. I didn't mean to come across that way. I simply read too much into your response to the "kids" reply to your post. I try and encourage "newbies" rather than cut 'em down.

Because:

I hate the hierarchical mentality that many heads exhibit. It's just so unbecoming of (what's thought to be) such a liberal and open minded group of people .

That's all. I really meant no offense, I just lost it for some silly reason...

Its cool Dude...really!...we are both long time fans, and Im positive that we both have a hell of a lot more in common, than we do disagreements! Let us all just enjoy however much time this band has left! Happy New Year to all!! P.S. Thats pretty FUNNY Mr. Tofu! Im gonna run out now and see if I can find one of those "extra-dimensional hearing aids!"

"to be", "to be there"...

it makes the vocal end 2 beats early. works for me either way

actually i am a woman....i've been to over 250 dead related shows as well as 79 dylan shows, 3 rolling stones shows, 3 bridge benefits, 4 who, 6 young, many leftovers, 2 many nelsons,traveled to every state numerous times.......i used 2 b a zone junkie but i don't know what happened. And what ever phil does, chooses to do will always rock to me........ROCK ON PHIL

oh i forgot i saw paul twice.....and what a super rocker

phil sings in cold rain and snow "shes combing back her brown hair" for jill...its not my choice of words but so be it.....if thats what he wants.....rock it out phil.....thank god he fricken sings......meet me in the zone and i will share some mr. nice with you if your nice.

>>i've been to over 250 dead related shows<<

care to elaborate what exactly constitutes "related"? you mean: P & F, Ratdog, etc? or are you also counting shows like DSO & SCI?

If you are 25 as your profile states - then you were 10 when JG passed. Did you ever see Jerry? (not that it matters, I'm just curious)

I tried to defend you for being a "newbie" when (if your statement is true) you could have easily said so yourself.

Um, is there some kind of litmus test for posting on the zone?

I think one should at least know who Phil is.

It's the end of the show and he's just milking it with that little flourish. It's a less obnoxious ending than most shows with the guitar crescendo.
Don't think the new ending is that aesthetic either. Kinda awkward addition as is when they mess with the diamonds lyrics to Darkstar.
As to deeper meanings I don't think there are any.

>>>2 many nelson(shows)

No such thing.

I listened to at least a dozen endings to Box of Rain (post Jerry) and he definitely doesnt say "To be there" anymore....He says "To be, to be, to be" unless Im totally deaf. Its not a big deal, but like I said, I like it the old way when everybody in the audience sang the last verse together. Oh well..I think its time for a new subject.

i try to be nice and positive and always seem to be on the defense. I love the music love being there in the moment, what ever their choice words are i am glad it is there still for me to dance too. It hasn't been the same since jerry died, all he left behind was a little magic for us to remember and the boys to carry it on to the next generation. the 250 is including the grateful dead, phil n friends, further, dead, mickey, bill, missing man formation, and blue floyd...i was trying to be modest with the 250,
i've heard the to be to be to be......its not that bad.....change is constant......i don't like it either but it is what it is......why waste time nit picking and why not try to find something good about it........

perhaps you find yourself on the defense because your info seems amiss: why have you changed your age 3 times during the course of this thread? and if you are indeed in your 20's it seems pretty unrealistic that you saw many if any Grateful Dead concerts. Not that that makes you any less of a fan - just sayin', what gives?

furthermore - how is Blue Floyd "Dead related"?

you know I only saw the GRATEFUL DEAD 40 times, and that was starting at 15 years old. I know that's not as many or as young as a lot of deadheads yet still more than others. I'm lucky and proud to have seen THAT many! So again I ask: are you saying you were seeing Grateful Dead concerts when you were like 10 years old?

I tried to defend your newbism and now I feel duped.

>>>it is what it is......

this tired, useless expression needs to get lost, imho.

its not my age its how many post i have

blue floyd is one of the bands vince played in after jerry died.... thats why thats up there..i only seen one of those shows.....it really shouldn't be there because it was a beatles cover band.....but since it was vinces band i puti added it...it is what it is......

>>> it is what it is <<< Personally, I dont like that expression either...Doesnt mean anything. But Im not attacking anybody for using it, so dont get upset if you used that expression.

like that doodah man

oops - I guess I should've looked a little closer!
thanks for clearing that up, my mistake - thanks.

I didn't know Vince was in Blue Floyd - though I'm not sure I'd consider them a "Beatles" cover band - wasn't it more of a Floyd thing?

I guess I should've just stayed in "Other Stuff" - I've done nothing here except alienate myself.

Love you guys - hang in there!

TTYL

i didnt know that Vince played in Blue Floyd or that they did Beatles covers. The 1 time i saw that band, about 5 years ago, lineup was Johnny Neel, Matt Abts, Audrey Freel, Duane Betts, & Berry Oakley Jr. It was not as "Blue" as i thought it would be. They did almost all Pink Floyd songs, fairly straghtforward rock versions and not so bluesy.

thats what i thought about the floyd thing, it is totally decieving, when i went they jammed beatles. You didn't alienate yourself you stood up for me and it made me feel really good... and i wanted to say thanks for that......thanks muppet.......the bottom line is robert hunter rocks......jerry rocks, phil rocks, bobby rocks,,,,you get the point......I met vince that night.....and i told him how much i loved "a long way to go home" "samba in the rain" he practically cried and couldn't believe i knew his songs........then he smoked a big fat kind hootie with me during set break.......Godbless vince and may his soul find rest.

>>>>>Box of Rain is one of my favorite songs! Its also quite a sad song


I always found it very uplifting and hopeful.

thats what I was thinking... its a song of empathy.

"what do you want me to do... to do for you"

Still sad tho when you think about it, and what Phil was goin thru at that time.

>>>>> such a long, long,time to be gone, and a short time to be, to be, to be"....



I heard someone suggest he sing "such a long time to be gone, and a short time 'here" but he can't bring himself to sing it as it's so true but would really be a downer for the end of the song so he sings, "to be, to be, to be......" and lets you decipher the rest.

>>>>> I heard someone suggest he sing "such a long long time to be gone, and a short time to be here" but he can't bring himself to sing it as it's so true and would really be a downer for the end of the song, so he sings, "to be, to be, to be......" and lets you decipher the rest.

That makes alot of sense!...Is it true tho?

hence the " lets you decipher the rest." ^^^^^

question is, where was the last one where he did sing the ending ?

I dont hink he sang the original ending in the post Jerry era as of yet...So I "beleive" tho I may be wrong, that the last time he sang it was with the Grateful Dead at their last show..Soldier Field 95'

I always interpreted the revised ending as a revision in the thought he's trying to convey with the lyric: "a short time to be" as in "to be or not to be", ie., a short time to be alive.

As to preferring it one way or another, I've always found the best way to approach what the boys are offering is to take what I'm given and enjoy it for what it is. I try not to get too attached to any particular arrangement. I can understand why they'd want to make some changes from time-to-time. After all, if you were playing the same songs for forty years, even ones with tremendous space to jam and improvise, wouldn't you want to change up the lyrics, the tempo, even the basic musical structure sometimes?

On May 19, 2006 at The Warfield in SF, the second night of two shows filming Phil's DVD, Phil played a long encore of O1->Dark Star->O1 where the O1 was really slow and trippy. It was 2am and the place was only a third full. I LOVED IT! I must have close to 500 GD, JGB, and PLF shows in my music collection. And the reason that isn't crazy is that they're all different!

uh, so now you know why people call me Deacon - sometimes I get to preachin'. I hope I didn't offend.

B-)

Its all good Deacon... Just lookin for educated opinions.That sounds good what you said..it makes sense...Tho, like somebody mentioned earlier, it would sound a little better if he ended it with... such a long, long, time to be gone, and a short time to be "here"

When I heard him end the tune with the repeated "to be..., to be..., to be..." at the Gorge I almost cried- it opens it up to even more depth in my book. It's less specific than "to be there" and allows each listener to make more personal associations while also being closer to a universal truth I think. When you're getting older, "there" is less important than being.

^^That's my take too. First time I heard it I was confused and then started tracking down versions on the archive to see if it was a fluke. Makes a lot of sense. Phil's coming to grips with his mortality.

exactly

Here, there, and everywhere? Oh thats a mop tops song. Never mind. I'm not convinced that the meaning of this song changes any, because of this change in words. It is my understanding that Robert Hunter wrote this song for Phil, when his dad was very sick, close to moving on.
It is interesting that some view this song as sad, while others gather empathy from it. There is some truth to both points of view. Well written material can do that. Different audience members can take different meanings out of any song. Everyone reacts differently, and no one point of view has more validity than another. Whether you saw the GD play 478 times or are a "newbie" who came onto the bus after Jerry passed, doesn't much matter. It's what one gets from the material that counts.
Now for a completely different take. Being "there" represents being at a show. Or having a life enhancing experience. Long time to be gone represents the opposite. Mundane day to day existence. I doubt that is what Robert Hunter had in mind when this song was written. None the less it is a concept that can be taken from the lyric.

Tho, like somebody mentioned earlier, it would sound a little better if he ended it with... such a long, long, time to be gone, and a short time to be "here" <<<<<<<<


exactly John and when he sings it for the 1st time on his 70th Birthday the audience will be wowed......wish I was there.

maybe he's just talking about vacation.

You think that Phil will really sing that on his 70th? I guess we will all find out soon enough!

never know John but it's worth speculating.
I'm thinking he'll stick with this ending
thing he has going as it makes for a bit of mystery.

the reason that phil changes the way he sings the lyrics is because...........HE CAN!!!!!


bwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

<<phil sings in cold rain and snow "shes combing back her brown hair"

I cant stand how he changed the opening to that tune..horrible

I agree!! I dont EVER want to hear Phil sing Cold Rain and Snow ever again because of that. We know that you love your wife Phil, but we really dont need to hear about her in Jerry songs!...Plus he shouldnt be singing that song anyways, its a way too difficult song for him to pull off...and it sounds it.

well he finally sang the ending in Chicago......I need to re-listen to the show to see exactly what he said, I know it was there but he might have added "here."

I'd listen to it but whoever uploaded the show left out the 2 encores and the Donor rap......very similar to days of yor when many tapers would deliberately fuck up the good show tapes........for the life of me I will never understand this.

maybe Phil sang the ending in Chitown, in tribute to the last GD show in 95 at Soldier Field. maybe.

maybe he changed the ending because he was sick of everybody singing along with him.

I don't hear a here or there from Chicago.

If to be or not to be is the question I'm a big fan of being!
And I don't mind about the color of the girls hair in Cold Rain And Snow what I don't like is changing "She's Been trouble all my life" to "I've loved her all my life" that changes the whole complextion of the song.
But he's Phil and God bless him he can sing whatever the fuck he wants...

Phil commented about this topic in the Yo Zoners Wazzup? thread in Other Stuff. Check it out.

It's his song and he can do what he wants with it. I think it's called poetic license!
Peace
RTD

After the newbie argument I am almost afraid to post this :-(. But anywho

I found this thread interesting and googled it and found some things that I didn't know about it.

""On American Beauty the song featured two musicians who are not in the band. Dave Torbert played bass, while Lesh played acoustic guitar. David Nelson (of New Riders of the Purple Sage) plays the lead guitar with a Fender Telecaster equipped with a Parsons/White B-Bender, while Jerry Garcia plays the piano.""

We had a few shows in Hartford in the eighties around Phils birthday and would always chant "LET PHIL SING"

Having a mother who passed away while I was young, I always found the song uplifting no matter how he ends it.

Maybe it's just the idea that even, given the context of the song that it is more significant just being than opposed to being there with or for somebody. I understand this song was written about his fathers slipping away, but when originally written was the last line meant to convey life itself ...or the time we actually DON'T spend with our loved ones. If the latter is true, then changing of the lyric could be a shift to the former, representing life as opposed to time lost. Anywat that's my story and I'm stickin to it!

The smartass answer is, "he's been hanging out with Bobby too much." Not accurate of course.

I just think he's trying to make an existential point of some sort, but I don't think his singing it in this way makes the sentiment any more meaningful. I guess he feels he's making a broader, more cosmic statement leaving it as "to be, to be, to be" rather than "to be there." And yes, I think he is trying to emphasize a "you only go around once so..." idea by repeating it like that. I don't think it's as strong poetically and it's unfamiliar to the ear (which makes it less effective as a song).

It's not as bad as painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa, and it's no where near as bad as Weir's "improvements," but I still don't like it.

Part of being an artist is knowing when to step away from the canvas and put the brush down.